Rattle and clatter

Discussion in 'Honda K-Series' started by Whisker Version, Friday 15th Mar, 2019.

  1. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    I've got an electronic throttle. How can I rev the engine from the engine bay to listen to the noises? In days of yore, I'd pull on the Bowden cable attachment point.
     
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  2. jd1959 Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Ireland Zack Kilkenny
    557
    315
    Have either of you guys pulled the rocker cover off to see the condition of the valves and get an idea of how the motor has been treated? If you find a bunch of sludge you'll know it hasn't been maintained properly. Although damage is most likely done a few oil changes close together might help clean out narrowed or blocked passages and give you a bit more life out of the engine. Given the VTC problem you had can be caused by lack of oil changes over time, sludge blocking passages and screens, and your thinking that oil pressure is an issue, it might be worth doing. That and you can do a basic check to make sure there is a bit of play in the valve train (if you don't want to properly adjust), the chain is tight and nothing looks out of place on the top end before considering pulling apart the bottom half of the motor while your in there.

    Any checks yet to see if you can identify which cylinder is causing the problem?

    Another thought you can pick up a cheap borescope for your phone/laptop around a tenner and check to see if there is cylinder wall scoring that piston slap would leave.
     
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  3. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    I have a "push and hope" wifi boroscope for my phone/laptop, because the guys at work were raving about them. For £10, you can have something that you would have to spend thousands on with Olympus fibre-optic kit. However, I found the it quite hard to use and the picture hard to interpret, especially with the fixed-focus lenses, so I've not made much use of it. Personally, I'm conflicted over whether my engine has been severely mistreated. I recently changed the coolant and the ATF, and they were both in great condition, but judging by the air filter (which was disgusting), I don't think the supposed service was ever done prior to my buying the vehicle, which might have resulted in my VTC valve playing up. I swapped the Jap-Ko oil filter for a Comline one yesterday, and topped up the oil with Chevron synth 5-30W from Costco, so I'll keep you posted if I notice an improvement.
    - - - Updated - - -
    When I start up, the use of the steering wheel brings on the rattle noticeably. I would have thought the power steering was the cause, except I slipped off the aux belt, and the rattle could still be heard, so I presumed it was the engine load from the power steering that was exacerbating the noise.
     
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  4. jd1959 Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Ireland Zack Kilkenny
    557
    315
    Not many choices (spurious) on the RG for air filters so very possible it was skipped due to availability.
     
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  5. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    I'd agree, but a dealer importing loads of cars ought to be able to manage to import an air filter, and also the oil filter was Japanese, which, to my mind, suggested it hadn't been changed either.

    BTW, if anyone is curious, if an oil filter has a non-return valve, it is commonly a rubber membrane (white in the pic) that occludes the rim holes in the filter, and is pressed down by a leaf spring from the inside. Blowing into the centre hole should not be possible if all is working well since the oil should only exit from there.

    I've still got my noise after spinning on a Comline filter, alas.
     

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  6. mw88 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    I know mine is properly f***ed, so I pulled the rocker cover off for a laugh this morning.

    You can tell I've been a bit lazy on servicing :Laughing:, but considering the engine has done 277k it doesn't look too bad - Ignore the state of the outside of the engine, must have had an oil leak somewhere all the shite has stuck to!

    Will be pulling bottom end apart at some point to have a look at the damage

    cam. IMG_0916.JPG IMG_0920.JPG IMG_0922.JPG
     
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  7. jd1959 Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Ireland Zack Kilkenny
    557
    315
    Looking at the burnt on oil suggests the neglect, and very well might be a good part of the problem. The difference in the internals between mine at 250k and yours with an extra 25k is shocking. Other than a small bit of wear on the cams there is very little to no visible deposits on mine. Put up some photos when you get around to pulling off the oil pan.
     
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  8. mw88 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    @jd1959 - After a bit of Googling, mine is definitely worse than I thought! Luckily, no sludge, but as you mention there's a fair bit of burnt oil over everything. The ones I've seen on the tinterweb are all nice and shiny silver!

    Bringing Whisker Versions thread full circle, could it be the VTC solenoid? (I doubt it, but really wanting an easy fix :Laughing:). When pulling the rocker cover off last weekend, I noticed a bolt doesn't seem to be done up properly on what I presume is the VTC solenoid.

    It's on the side of the engine, just under the intake cam.
    vtc.
     
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  9. mw88 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Wishful thinking :Frown: Think they're supposed to look like that..

    bolt.
     
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  10. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    If you want to see what ignoring oil changes does, have a look at the black sludge at start of this video:
    My understanding of the brown staining is that it is lacquering or varnishing of the oil, and is caused by the oil being too hot for too long, but I concede, I'm not a mechanic.
    I tried taking my rocker cover off this afternoon, but the two bolts at the PCV pipe end are well stuck, so I've put some plus gas on and will have ago another day. I might have to get another rocker cover on standby in case they shear off.
     
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  11. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    I've got my rocker cover off after a huge battle, so here are a few pics.
    image008-small. image011-small. image001-small. image005-small. image006-small.

    It doesn't look that bad to my eye. There are witness marks on the cam lobes but that is about it (the flash makes things browner than they are in natural light).
    The spark plugs' central electrodes are worn to an angle, which I've not seen happen before, so I think I'll replace them.

    I wish I hadn't started this process because I've got little confidence of getting the cover back on without mangling the new gasket. There is almost no space above the head, and I had to move the brake fluid reservoir and jiggle for ages. I also don't believe accuracy to one or two thou is possible with feeler gauges at the rear because a mirror must be used, and you can't be sure the feeler is being applied horizontally.
     

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  12. jd1959 Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Ireland Zack Kilkenny
    557
    315
    Doesn't look bad to me either not much evidence of burnt oil and if there was no sign of loose rockers or chain it supports the lower end issue unfortunately.

    I use iridium plugs with the lpg they will last much longer. I found my stock plugs showed signs of electrode wear really quickly.

    I feel your pain. That exhaust bank under the brake fluid tank is really a pain to do. I tend to just rely on feel with a set of short angled gauges to check and use a go/no go method to check. Since lpg I have set them on the loose side so if a .012 will fit tight but a .013 won't go in I know have it about right. After getting the cover off and setting those two its usually time for a break as my back starts giving out with the odd angles you need to be at. The rest goes pretty quickly.

    You'll get it back together just make sure you take the vacuum line and bracket off and the PS hose and bracket off as well. I haven't had to loosen the reservoir. Start from the intake side of the engine getting the rocker cover back on and move to the left once over the cams ends and first set of bolts. There is close to zero clearance but it does go on without clipping the gasket.

    I take it no change on the rattle?
     
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  13. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    You've made me wonder why you didn't need to move your brake fluid reservoir when the prominent dipstick tube on the cover bangs into mine. Do you jack your car up for the job? I wonder if that could give a cm or two extra room on the engine mounts?
    I'm still in the process of doing the job, so I'll give an update later, although my #1 ex valve is at 4thou !

    BTW, counterfeit NGK spark plugs are everywhere, and it is next to impossible to tell them from the authentic ones, until they snap or disintegrate. Have a look here for the highly controlled process by which the counterfeit ones are made: https://ukantipiracy.co.uk/cars/ngk.html
    It makes you wonder who you can trust for car parts.
     
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  14. jd1959 Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Ireland Zack Kilkenny
    557
    315
    No never jacked it up, I use the power steering pump pulley to rotate the motor so no need. Its a tight fit but have always managed - sometimes getting a bit of rtv on the top chain guide, or other bits along the way. Its a job I need to do in the next few weeks so I'll try an get a few photos and put them up here.

    I have found the exhaust about tighten a bit more than I'd like on LPG, the new mapping which is using petrol incrementally from about 3k up on the RPM band has slowed it down a fair bit though. I'm now using (including start ups) about 1L/130km of petrol.

    The counterfeit plugs, oils, and pretty much anything they can make a profit on are a concern and sometimes very difficult to tell the difference. I was given a set of Gillette Fusion razors, (counterfeit) which were bought in a market that tore the face off me the first time I went to use them!!! The last set of plugs I put in were NGK Ruthenium which are supposed to be harder again. Also new the the market so hopefully the real deal.
     
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  15. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    I've got the job done but it was a pig, and I wouldn't want to do it again.
    The #2 and #3 exhaust valve clearances were below 2 thou, yet I've been on LPG for less than a year. I didn't bother probing with a thinner gauge because it would be like trying to push tin foil in. #1 and #4 were at 4thou . I didn't need to adjust the intake valves as these were between 8 & 10 thou. I probably just caught the exhaust valves in time but it goes to show that the advised valve clearance ranges are a bit too precise.

    My rattle at 1800 RPM is still present. I could rotate a screwdriver into cylinders 1,2,&3 only, but I couldn't feel any play. The piston crowns look rubbish, though. See below. The pistons of my other (Rover) cars I've owned were in much better condition at twice the mileage, which is a bit embarrassing.

    #1. #1@2oclock. #3. #4. #2.


    Since I need some new spark plugs, I've been doing some investigation. LPG does not burn hotter than petrol. It probably is true that an air/lpg mix is harder to ionize than an air/petrol mix because the molecules are small, so the electrons will be more strongly attached. However, the metal that the cathode is made from has no bearing on the strength of electric field needed to initially ionize the gas mixture (it does have some effect later on the duration of the pulse). These rare elements like iridium and ruthenium are highly resistant to oxidation, which means a slimmer, more pointy cathode can be constructed, which might be able to ionize the gas more easily, but my initial thought is that I could afford to change my plugs every 6 months, and use the cheap £2.50 ones, and be a lot better off than having bought the £20/piece ruthenium ones or the £15/piece iridium ones. The coil packs seem to have no problem producing the necessary voltages.
     
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  16. mw88 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Was hoping to drop the sump and checkout the bottom end over the weekend, but it can't be removed without either:
    a) removing driveshafts, drop links and mounts before lifting the engine an inch or so.
    b) dropping the subframe.

    :brickwall:
     
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  17. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    It's a shame the oil pan is so hard to get off.

    I've put a stethoscope on various bits of my car and found everything sounds bad when amplified! The sound is loudest near #2 and #4 cylinder.
    Here's a youtube video of an Accord with failing con rod bearings. The poster says his noise started after an oil change! This seems common between all three of us with the noise. I had no metal attached whatsoever to the sump plug when I looked a few weeks ago, and I might have expected a bit if the crankshaft journals were being destroyed.

    Incidentally, the noise started soon after putting this in:
    Magnatec.
     
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  18. mw88 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Curiosity got the better of me this morning - I moved the car last weekend to do the brakes on my Volvo and noticed the Accord was leaking oil, so wondered if I'd left the old oil filter gasket on when changing the oil.

    The good news, is I didn't :clap:

    The bad news, is there's definitely no easy fixing mine. The oil filter was full of copper from the big end bearings.
    1. 2. 3.
    :Whiteflag:
     
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  19. Whisker Version Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Bristol
    61
    18
    Appreciate the update, even though it is sad news, and not good news for me. Are you going to junk the car, or try to put some new bearings in yourself? I suppose it might not have got through the shells yet...the copper is the second layer in the shell.
     
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  20. mw88 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Not too sure yet. If I was going to do it myself, I'd need to buy a crane and stand, but I don't really have the space to have an engine/gearbox lying around. But could probably be done for £500ish

    I've spoken to a local Honda specialist, and they'd charge £450 to swap engines if I supply one. Makes sense to get clutch done while it's all apart which is another £150 ish. I'd probably get chain/tensioners and valve clearances done on the replacement as there's probably no guarantee on when it was last done, so looking around £1500 all in.

    The car has done 277k, so it's worth bugger all but I don't think I could scrap it..
     
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