Engine & Gearbox Honda i-DTEC DPF Regeneration

Discussion in '8th Generation (2008-2015) [Acura TSX]' started by demon-knight, Friday 27th Jan, 2012.

  1. Zebster Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    That is a useful link which nicely explains the difference between active and passive regeneration.

    Unfortunately I doubt that passive regeneration alone will keep the DPF clear. This car really does need to have the lack of active regen properly investigated and repaired... I have no idea whether it could possibly have been caused by the use of a performance chip but the ECU appears to be faulty and, if it was my car, then I'd probably try fitting a secondhand ECU to see if the active regen function is restored (will need to be coded to the car using HDS).
     
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  2. SayamaAccord Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom Cliff County Durham
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    Interestingly the link doesn't say anything about upping the revs on the motorway to achieve passive regeneration.
     
  3. scotsgent Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Scotland Terry Fort William
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    Yes, of course, no argument.

    However, if possible, I'd prefer any conversation to get back to the core technical issue:

    Why have I had to have 2 DPF's fitted to my car and now verging on third.

    the tuning guy from whom I got the last piece of advice (and who seemed more knowledgable than anyone I'd spoken to at Honda).
    Comes up with only one possibility - namely, the car isn't regenerating itself.

    Of this, there is usually two causes a) A component failure, or, 2) Driving style.

    Driving style can't be the caause, since most of my journeys are on fast Highland A roads, plenty of hillls and I drive with some enthusiasm. I also understand the needs of a DPF and thus take every precaustion to 'condition' it, (regular, proper oil and filter changes, etc.). I also tow my caravan to the south of Spain each winter. perfect conditions to keep a DPF healthy.

    This leaves component failure, several investigations by Honda turned nothing up, EXCEPT, recently, a split EGR pipe. If this had been at fault for some time, then I can see this might ensure that the Differential pressure sensor would give an erroneous value (since presssure would escape from the hole) and thus, no regeneration would take place. This pipe has been replaced.

    Only time will tell if this was the reason. I'm setting off for Devon this week, that will be a decent test. On my return, I will once again visit my tuner freind and assuming the warning light has not come on then he will run a diagnostic scan again and in particular, measure the soot mass in the DPF. If this is within value, then its fixed.

    if the warning light illuminates whilst on my trip, then I will have some other decisions to make.

    Given the PM mass was 3.5gms of soot a week ago, then if the DPF does become choked, then its clear that just getting a new DPF or even getting the existing one cleaned will be a waste of money since the DPF is just a receptacle and something is filling it.

    One fact which I had not understood: If a fault code exists for any engine or emissions problem, the ECM will not allow regeneration.

    Finally, Honda tell me they had 're-set' the ECM back to default values. The service manager assurred me that this was not just a re-set of the ash counter but a re-boot of the ECM? I don't know. This was done in order for the ECM to 'unlearn' any driving style habits which were leading to no regeneration. I reckon this might be bull' but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know - maybe not!?
     
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  4. SayamaAccord Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom Cliff County Durham
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    There seem to be two possible causes, the pipe, or the ECM if the chip altered it. Honda couldn't find anything else. It seems you've now resolved both of those. So let's keep our fingers crossed.
     
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  5. Zebster Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    You may recall that I did suggest this a while back...
    If you could get it to work then you could monitor the soot content, ash content, time since last regen, DPF temperature and both DPF differential pressure sensors to properly assess in real time what's going on (or perhaps what's not happening). Works great for me on my Volvo and all for the price of an ELM327 Bluetooth OBD2 interface (was £2.60 from the Gearbest website).

    Either way, good luck and hopefully it's now trouble-free.
     
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  6. scotsgent Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Scotland Terry Fort William
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    Yes, thanks,I did see your post, but thought it needed someone more tech' savvy to configure it.

    In fact, I have an ELM thingy and the torque app' so I have just downloaded your recommendation and will try and sort it this week. Thanks a lot, if it works for me it will be very useful. Thanks.
     
  7. Azzaaaaaaa Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Aaron Stoke-on-Trent
    89
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    I'd hardly be surprised if it was the wrong grade of oil, car was sold as approved used and didn't even meet the criteria. I've found numerous holes in their paperwork too, they just aren't competent as a dealership.

    What the guy's said about RPM is pretty standard, we had to do something similar in the Auris we had and for the Micra we've got now, no where has it ever regenerated at low RPM - even on a run to cornwall (about 300 miles).

    I've heard of the water pressure cleaning, I called up a local place in Crewe that did it and told them about the issues I'd had, they said the Honda DPF system is a nightmare for them, it's THE ONLY manufacturer they struggle with as they can blast the DPF, put it back on the car and reset everything and it STILL flag a master warning alarm on the dsah saying Check System. Said the only way they'd found to get around it was hard resetting it if i remember right i.e. battery off.

    But I mean mine was conking out with 2.8g in the filter. It wasn't blocked. You'd assume if it was a faulty sensor the dealership would have picked that up, or replaced them when the entire DPF system was replaced. Then again this dealer couldn't even measure tyres correctly...LOL

    What I would say is that I reported all this to Honda UK, and I'm CONVINCED there's a cover up in play, as Honda UK basically said it was my fault, dealership said it was my driving that did it etc. etc.

    Which is all fairly common responses for DPF issues as if they can blame your driving then they don't have to pay...

    Honda UK just sent me info on what a DPF is and how it works, I replied this wasn't my first car with a DPF and there was something WRONG with this vehicle.

    Sorry it's a discontinued model - we're unable to assist. Go speak to the dealership.

    I even showed them other owners with the exact same issue saying it's widespread, there is a FAULT here!

    Refused to acknowledge or comment on it.

    Because if they did, hello Honda Dieselgate.

    But I find it highly unlikely it was my driving that did anything to the DPF considering it managed over 3000 miles of trouble free motoring, then one month after Holdcroft touch it again, it conks out...with 2.8g in the filter...

    I'd love to say Holdcroft could comment more, but they refused the car on site and threatened to tow it if left, so they're unable to state anything with regards to plugging the vehicle in!
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    Oh something else before I forget, there's also the DPF additives to whack in your fuel.

    Lowers the combustion point of the crap in the filter (by some weird tech magic) and allows regen to be achieved easier, at a lower exhaust temp.

    Confirmed as working in the Auris we had (did over 50k in it), and a Focus which has done over 100k with it - both were driving instructors vehicles too so you'd expect with the short journeys and town driving they do, they'd be the most susceptible to DPF issues, nothing with these two at all!
     
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  8. scotsgent Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Scotland Terry Fort William
    113
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    I've got the app runnning on my tablet in the car. It seems (from the Volvo thread you pointed me to) that DPF values should be displayed under the 'All sensors' icon reached from the home page. Sadly, there is no reference to DPF on my ap'. There is a note which says that 'sensors available depends upon the ECU of the vehicle' - so maybe the Honda ECU doesn't allow it. Sad. if true since many other functions are indeed available.

    I've got the free version, maybe I need the paid for one?

    Of course, I may well have got the wrong end of the stick and the DPF data there somewhere, but I can't see it!

    Any ideas? Cheers, Terry
     
  9. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    Have the same issue, but not had the time to look further or indeed post on here.
     
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  10. Azzaaaaaaa Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Aaron Stoke-on-Trent
    89
    18
    Presumably you've had the tech track stuff done by Honda UK? Is it worth collating a list of people who have had this issue, that way any car still owned can be comparatively assessed for differences - then get one car that has no issues with the DPF (assuming there is one) and find out what differences there are on that one.

    I really do suspect there's an issue Honda won't admit to, because as I said, it basically implies Honda Dieselgate.

    I've sent all my evidence and statements from other owners through to Honda UK - they refuse to comment. They won't even entertain there's a problem.

    If everything else fails, try that additive in your fuel and see how you get on, get it force regenerated then whack the additive in, it says every 3 tankfuls of fuel and see if the distance you drive before limp mode kicks in extends.
     
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  11. Matt at H-Tune Service Team H-Tune Staff

    I'd love to see them prove that the DPF has been deleted, unless by some freakish happening the DPF splits open, a bit of me doubts they'd even check...most insurance inspections post-accident are more concerned with brakes, tyres and lights, and then the obvious panel and chassis damage to see whether or not it's worth repairing. If the engine runs, great-but if you've got a properly done DPF delete, there won't be a warning light anyway. The light only comes on when it's regenerating.
     
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  12. scotsgent Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Scotland Terry Fort William
    113
    53
    But don't they now measure nox emissions via a wand up the exhaust pipe? Thats what I've been led to beleive?

    No DPF (removed) is detected by the higher level than normal?
     
  13. Azzaaaaaaa Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Aaron Stoke-on-Trent
    89
    18
    It's done as part of the smoke test I believe yeah, but if you read the limits for pass fail, there was historically a wide open limit that most car's didn't really fail on unless you were billowing smoke, so they reduced the size of the goalposts with the newer style tests, however it's still a very large banding - there's a number of people with Gen8 Accords who have had their DPF's removed for years and have never failed an MOT, despite the perceived illegality it's quite a common thing to do, I've even heard of some garages guaranteeing the vehicle passes it's emissions if you have the MOT done at the same place it was removed from...
     
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  14. Zebster Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Have you correctly set your connection profile as described in that Volvo link? It wouldn't display my DPF data in the all sensors list until I had done that properly. Yes I use the free version of the app and I believe both our vehicles have the same Bosch EDC17 ECU.
    - - - Updated - - -
    No , the vehicle NOx emissions are not monitored during the MOT.

    DPFs do not reduce NOx emissions, they remove soot.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Reports of Accords with DPFs removed never having MOT problems may have come from an Accord forum run by a guy who makes a living from DPF removals?

    It's not 'perceived illegality', it's actually illegal to use a vehicle on the roads that has had any of the emissions control systems disabled. Unfortunately it's not illegal to disable them, so cowboy garages avoid prosecution. And the MOT isn't currently great at detecting the increased particulate emissions so owners do usually get away with it, but the MOT has recently been tightened up in this regard and better detection techniques will be put into place.
     
  15. Matt at H-Tune Service Team H-Tune Staff

    That genuinely can depend on how it's mapped, I've seen them pass with no DPF (just about).
     
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  16. Azzaaaaaaa Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Aaron Stoke-on-Trent
    89
    18
    Nope nothing to do with Honda at all, I'm aware of people who have had this done and go back to the same garage who guarantee passes, rightly or wrongly.

    And well yeah it's illegal to have an emissions control disabled, but I can't see people getting investigated on it anytime soon considering the storm the major vehicle manufacturers have created with Dieselgate.

    I'm not advocating flouting the law, I'm just saying if Honda can't fix it, despite designing it, then you as the owner aren't left with much of a choice other than to get rid of the car, remove the system or keep paying for further work?

    I mean put it this way, I've got a friend who until recently had a BMW 530D, big engine, DPF fitted, ONLY did short driving, damn thing wasn't even filled with oil last I checked, I had to go get some and top it up as he wasn't able to - never had a DPF problem in his entire ownership and he had the DPF cleaned once a year at a specialist company.

    Just goes to show they can work, and in most cases people get away with using DPF's with no issues to normal running, the Gen8 however seems to be a problem vehicle for DPF's, and it's ironic it's Honda's first...
     
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  17. Matt at H-Tune Service Team H-Tune Staff

    It does certainly seem to be the case that I've not (yet, touch wood) seen DPF issues with the 1.6...
     
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  18. John Hamer Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom John Waltham Abbey
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    oh yes BMW ARE FANTASTIC!!

    What kind of chemistry do you have with your car? Love it? Loathe it? Let us know and you could win a £300 John Lewis voucher | No thanks
    askhj-header-new.
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    BMW DPF won't regenerate - what next?

    I have a 3.0-litre diesel BMW X3 that does 12-15k miles p.a. on a reasonable mix of long and short runs. After 5yrs/65k miles BMW are telling me the DPF needs replacing. The car suffers from an intermittent loss of power, particularly when trying to overtake from say 60-80 mph. Basically, I am not convinced that the DPF is the root of the problem or that replacing it will produce anything other than a short term improvement at best.

    Apparently, the engine diagnostics say the DPF is partially blocked (no warning lights are showing) and repeated attempts by me and BMW to do a forced regeneration have been unsuccessful. Supposedly the "back presssure" is too high or low to allow regeneration to take place even when the car is set up to force a regeneration to occur.

    If the DPF has reached the point of no return it seems to me that there must be a pre-exisiting problem that caused the DPF to reach this point i.e. regens have not been occurring for some time to keep the filter clear.

    The BMW dealer cannot explain the problem, except to say my driving profile must have changed (it hasn't!). BMW UK will not give access to their technical gurus unless requested by the dealer (they won't!). Result is impasse unless I spend £1200 for a new DPF. I have happily driven BMWs for 30 years, but this is certainly making me think twice about the car and BMW diesels in particular.

    Do you have any suggestions about what my problem could be and/or what I should do next?

    Many thanks.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Here's more
    https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/dpf-diesel-particulate-filter/which-cars-have-the-most-dpf-problems
     
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  19. Zebster Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    What's got nothing to do with Honda? Not sure what part of my post this relates to?

    Guarantees of an MOT pass at the place that removed the DPF is obviously wrong, highly illegal and I do find it hard to believe... how could the tester deny knowing that the DPF had been removed?

    Not being caught and getting away with an illegal activity doesn't make it right. And VAG dieselgate cannot be used to justify deliberately making a vehicle pollute, anymore than a mugger should be let off by the judge simply because Jack the Ripper was an even worse criminal!

    How many people do you reckon have died because of car emission control systems being disabled? From the BBC website... "Since 2013, the rate of asthma deaths has increased 17%, from 2.15 to 2.5 per 100,000 people. In 2018, 20 children aged under 14 died from asthma in 2018, up from 17 in 2017 and 13 the year before" and do you really think this is unconnected to vehicle pollution?

    The car can, and should be fixed. It just needs someone who knows how to and there are plenty of those about. Bosch designed the system and would have been a better bet than Honda.
     
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  20. Matt at H-Tune Service Team H-Tune Staff

    The visual inspection (as far as I'm aware) literally is just to say that there's no clear signs that it's been tampered with. If there aren't any obvious cuts/welds on the DPF, how can you tell it's not got a filter in it?
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    This is a pretty unarguable point, it has to be said.
     
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